yeah fair enough. my first post in this thread was so unarticulate it started the thing off on the wrong foot.

Something I'm going to tentatively suggest is that while there is disregard on both sides, unquesionably, it is my opinion that some of the people in lower classes are more intent on mobilising this feeling of divide (as such the title is called 'Battle' of the Classes).
Obviously I have genralised and made a bold statement in order to make my point clearly.

This is an interesting point Libs. Very interesting thread!! People have always been poor, but crime is going up, disrespect is going up, and community values have died. No more 'alright guvnor, half a pound of cola cubes'. I am very interested in the social issues, that have cumulated to erode what we would call 'classic' positive human values.

I mean, I attach a lot of weight to how someone is brought up by their parents (or whoever raises them). Poor, rich or whatever, if the parents set a bad example then they are in trouble. But that doesn't really explain why there is an increase in people with scummy values being produced. The erosion has to start somewhere. I think what has happened is that more and more kids who are brought up by mentors who do set high standards are being affected by strengthening outside influences (the media, growth of materialism, street culture, the need to look 'cool' and hard, impress etc) and going haywire. They then have kids and set the same example and hence the erosion of communtiy values, respect, politeness, etc. Its like standards get slowly weakened down the chain and people attach more respect to their 'friends', what clothing they wear, or how hard they look, and the media, than mentors. As more and more kids go into society like this they gather in strength to influence other kids and soon classrooms have more naughty kids than good kids, and so other kids get drawn in. Its like a poisoning of society. There is a theory called 'chaos theory' which says it is easier to make a mess than to tidy up, things naturally go messy and it takes much more effort to tidy up. Society seems to be exhibiting chaos theory.

As a minor point, I also think that violent video games and films (not gratuitous) are not a problem when watched by people brought up with the right values, I am not one for total censorship. But, I think they do become a problem when they are played by the scummy sort who really do see these games or films as models for society (which most right thinking people realise that they are definatley not!!).This is hard to combate but idiot parents buying 10 year olds GTA is a problem!! I head of a 6 /7 year old who has been playing Resident Evil and he said 'when I grow up I want to kill people, bang bang'. Now he probably won't of course, but it was a shock to hear!

I suppose the growth of materialism through the media would support the growth in class envy too. Everyone wants the latest trainers to be respected. Stupid, but it increases the temptation for crime, or hatred of people who have money to buy these materialistic items.

People have always been rich , but snobbishness seems on the rise, and corporate scummy ruthlessness too. So at the upper end of the spectrum there are factors too, like careerism (job as a talisman), and the survival of the fittest mentality which have led to people growing up as corporate bullys (programs like that Alan Sugar program with people being rude and bullying to workmates don't help), people only interested in the £££ than people. Growth of capitalism etc. Also, the more scum lower down the classes , the more detached and resentful the upper classes become of the lower. Cycle of hate starts. Add the media stirring up class envy, racism, hatred, on either side, throw in a bit of fear and paranoia.

Also, there is this sort of technological nihilism where people realise that progress is now simply an issue of computers getting faster, or your digital tv set getting more channels etc. Where as in earlier non computer generations, the future probably seemed very exciting. When people see this lack of bright horizons so to speak, it depresses the whole of society. Then you have factors or war, etc etc. I suppose there are whole books on social science that cover this. Another issue would be the fact of whether society IS as bad as we think, the press would make you think the UK has crumbled completely, and the chinese whispers 'this country is going to pot' etc all make people disillusioned etc. Although we see the evidence for ourselves in some cases, I certainly have.

Interesting topic though, the stuff I write is just off the top of my head, I never did social science, not saying it is right or wrong, and I have generalised or (i'm sure) poorly expressed stuff for brevity. Just makes you think, because you see the results on your street, but the source usually gets less thought!!

congratualtions, mark, on one of the best posts I've ever seen on this board.
I might lock the thread for a day or two just so it's the last post people can read in the thread, and can't reply.

Cheers ,glad you liked my rambling, maybe I should do all my posts at 3.45am after a Saturday night from now on!

doh, that was me. I obviously have to develop skills in basic tasks.

seconded: but tab you knew that cos we've discussed it

Why would you lock it? I don't understand your reasoning at all.

I would have locked it so people enter this thread, and it's the last main post to see in the thread. It's immovable becuase the thread's locked, and can't dissapear if the discussion went onto new pages.

If you're wondering why I liked the post so much, it's because I thought it was brilliantly articulated, unlike my initial post in this thread. It did a really good job of expanding on points I've been trying to make in the thread.

i agree with iloveculture, even after reading your reasoning. why stop a full discussion in mid-flow?

it's hardly picked up again, has it?

But who are you to say that it isn't going to in the future? There could be some incredible statistic on the news which is relevant to this thread which would then mean that to alk about it would involve starting up a new thread. Fair enough if that's what you'd be happy with, but I really don't see the point.


Just get that guys post on a t-shirt and wander around the streets with it on.

honestly ilc, there's no point in having this discussion - I didn't lock it in the end, all I was saying is that I thought it was such a good post it deserved to be the final one of the thread. but it's not, hopefully the thread will return to its original topic.