The hopes for a new European Constitution have been practically ended by France's no vote in a referendum. France, one of the European heavyweight countries in the EU, is thought to have voted 'no' as a public sign of defiance towards the French politicians, as well as snubbing Europe in general.
The Dutch 'no' vote was probably induced by cheap drugs and whores.

What are the UK opinions on the EU constitution? I'm in favour of it, mainly. Stronger economy, better relations, can call myself a European.

Yep, I'm in favour of it as well.

Though its interesting how much of the opposition to the constituion in France came from the left rather than the right. I can't see there being a massive left wing movement against the constituion in the UK if it came to a referndum (which it wont now). It shows how the British political consensus is so (depressingly) different to our neighbors.

Hmm I'm in favour in principle but not having read the document it would be foolish of me to say YES.

I think there is a low standard of debate around Europe in this country its mostly confined to euro scaremongering of the daily mail, the sun et al "EUROPE IS BAD BECAUSE THEY WILL SCRAP THE POUND!""THE EUROPEANS WANT TO CHANGE THE SHAPE OF OUR BANNANA'S!"

Some things need reforming in the EU and the speed of it should eb slowed down but in priniciple I'm in favour of closer ties with our neighbours as hopefully it will benefit us all.

You can't seriously be saying that you'd prefer the political culture of France to the UK. The French "left" is concerned with things like protecting French agriculture, which, though it might preserve French jobs in the short-run, will damage both them (the over-regulated economy, which supposedly leads to more jobs, is a key reason for the fact that continental Europe has far higher unemployment than the UK) and, crucially, farmers in the developing world, in the long-run. If the "left" care more about French farmers than third-world hunger and poverty, then I don't know where that leaves their vision of equality - perhaps it only applies internally. Cutting trade barriers is, in the long-term, the crucial part of the new package for Africa.

Back on the EU constitution, I'm torn. On one hand, it's a chance to shape Europe towards a more free-market, British model, to reform the bureacracy and inefficiency of the EU status quo, and to clear up the grey areas that lead to confusion. If it can do that without representing a move towards a European superstate, then I'm in favour. But I'm wary of over-centralisation, especially in areas where common policy offers no specific advantages. Generally I like to see a more democratic, decentralised system where all regions can enact their own democratic process without having to bow to the wishes of a large area (especially in cases where a common policy may be entirely inappropriate and it's easier to deal with it on a country-by-country basis): in other words, exercise sovereignty.

Fair enough. I had no idea about this aspect of the French left. Regardless of this however, there still remains a very admirable culture of state interventionalism, be it through the retention of nationalised industry or legislation to improve working conditions.

You can't seriously be defending the British political culture though?

Yeah, cheers for harking on about the stereotype.. Nice to see that months of discussion in this country about the subject are overlooked.

Who gives a fuck what we voted, we're only Dutch and we're all druggies who like our whores..

Yeah Tim either that was a poor joke, or your serious.
If you are I think they probably had more of a sensible debate about the constitution than we could muster in this country, also maybe the document they were proposing just wasnt very well written, or very good maybe thats why two major euro powers voted no.

oh yeah I forgot you're from Holland (NOTE- THIS IS IRONY SINCE I REMEMBERED A DISCUSSION ABOUT A CD FESTIVAL IN WHICH I OFFENDED TSG AND AM NOW JUST MAKING SURE THAT IT ISN'T TAKEN SERIOUSLY).

What kind of fool would take what I said seriously anyway? The point is it's all been about the French No vote, since the Netherlands are a minor force in terms of being a political heavyweight in the EU when compared to France. The two are nowhere near equal. Which is why (you're right, but for the wrong reasons, TSG) the Dutch No has been rather overlooked in our press.

Look I just get really really pissed off when people throw the stereotype around. It sickens me that every time I mention I'm from The Netherlands the first reaction I get is "ooh! Amsterdam! Hookers! Drugs!". Every fucking time I'm in Amsterdam (where I'm pretty much a tourist, 'cause I don't live there and only go there for gigs), I get tourists coming up to me "excuse me, can you tell me where The Bulldog is? *giggle giggle*" (for those who don't know: The Bulldog is the best known coffee shop in Amsterdam, it's on the Leidseplein).

Oh and we're a bigger force in Europe than you seem to think. Despite our size, we have had more than our fair share of stuff. We pay more to the EU than a lot of bigger countries and fuck knows what else.

Hmm. That nationalisation is part of the reason why unemployment in France is higher than it is here in the UK.

It depends what you seen by the British political culture. There are aspects of it I like - scepticism of grand theories and big government, its economic philosophy, the general liberality (particularly in the judicial system) that it has retained (although that's under threat recently).

Not so much the increasingly authoritarian streak of both government and the public at large, the unreformed institutions, voting system and (consequently) culture of spin, playing to marginal voters, unwillingness to try radical solutions, etc.

I would also add:
The monarchy
The House of Lords
The needless fetishising of a vague idea of "tradition"
The over-centralisation of power
The rather shamefull obsession with immigration
The tabloid media culture
etc... etc... etc...

It's not just the french left that are obsessed with heavily over-regulated markets, it's the entire country. Half the reason we should sign up is so that we can scrap the CAP altogether, as no reforms seem to have worked. It's a piece of legislation that was primarily created for the french and the germans to swap sheep while everyone else pays for it.

If we go in, we have to do it properly as far as I'm concerned. No 'opt-out' clauses like we have in Maastricht and no rebate. At least that way we can be sure that we've signed up fully to the ECHR and the government can't just suspend bits of it so that we can have Charles Clarke throwing nasty muslims he doesn't like the look of into prison.

But are their nationalised services better than our privatised ones?Whenever I go to france I'm astounded by the quality of their public services. I think the power of the Unions over there is probably over the top however it isnt just about the figures what about the quality of life that people have in France compared to the UK?Public services are a part of that quality of life.

I'd agree with all of those.

Not quite true - the Germans actually lose out from CAP. The only significant beneficiaries are France and Spain.

Which public services do you mean? The nationalised industries that I'm taking issue with aren't the services like health and education (which surely must have been what you experienced), as these are nationalised in the UK too, but the actual manufacturing industries, which don't deliver people anything that the market can't do better.

French Transport in a word, At least I think its still nationalised there.
Do you take issue with the way they are run or the amount of power the workers and unions seem to exert over them?I just don't see how "nationalisation" is one of the main reasonsons for their high unemployement?